The Techspace Pod, Episode #2: Steve Vamos (ex-CEO, XERO) on Leading Through "Shifts and Shocks"

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Also available on Spotify

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Steve is joined by our host and former BBC tech journalist, Jane Wakefield, for a candid conversation on leading through change, building resilient teams, and letting go of control when it matters most.

Spanning four decades, Steve’s weathered every major technology shift and economic shock in the industry since the 1980s, from the rise of the PC to the dawn of AI:

• Led Xero through a pivotal chapter of global growth as CEO (2018–2023)
  
• Held senior roles at IBM, Apple, Microsoft, and ninemsn during moments of deep transformation.
  
• Chaired boards, mentored founders, and launched a not-for-profit to elevate the quality of workplace leadership across Australia.
  
• Captured his core lessons in a new book, Through Shifts and Shocks, on how to lead through uncertainty with clarity and care
  

With incredible humility, Steve shares what still keeps him grounded and why he believes great leadership isn't about having the answers, but about staying open enough to ask better questions.

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Top 5 Learnings from the Episode

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1. Great leadership is rooted in self-awareness (not just charisma!)

“To be a great leader, you’ve got to be self-aware. You’ll be more effective, and you’ll develop and change more quickly.”

Steve argues that leadership isn’t about being a natural “people person.” It’s about being conscious of your impact – and how your influences and experiences have impacted how you lead today. Whether you’re in a boardroom or a 1:1, the ability to observe yourself and adapt in real-time is what sets transformative leaders apart.

“Observing yourself as an actor in a play, rather than being the actor in a play, is a really powerful element of this whole notion of self-awareness.”

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2. If you’ve got a people problem, you’ve got an AI problem – not the other way around.

“If you manage your people to task rather than to potential, all these great tools that are coming down the line are going to go to waste.”

As the pace of change accelerates, Steve believes that human-centered leadership is more critical than ever. The companies that will thrive in the age of AI aren’t the ones chasing tools, but are the ones investing in people. AI doesn’t replace leadership; it reveals the strength of it. And that starts with how you build trust, give feedback, and develop potential across your team.

3. Clarity isn’t a one-off. It is a daily discipline. 

“You have to fight lack of clarity every day. As a CEO, as a manager, you can’t allow lack of clarity or alignment to just be.”

Drawing from his turnaround experience at NineMSN, Steve shares how alignment and clarity directly impact team morale and performance. Teams don’t need ten initiatives: they need three done exceptionally well, with a clear purpose everyone believes in.

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4. Vulnerability builds better teams

“Overcoming fear as a leader or as a manager is about being vulnerable. It's about saying: ‘I don't know what we should do here. I don't think I'm doing a very good job on this. Can you help me?’ That leads people to step up and contribute more.”

Steve unpacks how admitting doubt and inviting honest feedback fosters trust and why humility is a superpower for high-performance teams. He notes that leaders who create safe environments for honesty will unlock faster progress and deeper commitment.

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5. Founder-to-CEO transitions are personal, not just procedural 

“Founders who see the business as their personal validation will have a tougher road to letting go.”

Reflecting on his successful transition into the CEO role at Xero (taking over from founder and then-CEO, Rod Drury), Steve shares why founder succession must be rooted in trust, character, and shared vision. The ability to hand over control, without ego, is what separates founder-led startups from scalable companies.

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Check out the full conversation below

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‍About The Techspace Pod

‍The Techspace Pod cuts through the noise to spotlight the European founders, operators, and investors building what’s next — from inside the change-making teams shaping tech in Berlin, London, and beyond.Each episode delivers sharp insight from Techspace member companies and the people redefining the ecosystem – from frontier tech and funding, to team culture and scaling strategies.

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Jane

I'm here with Steve Vamos. Former CEO of Xero and ninemsn, but also the executive of some of the biggest companies in the world, including Apple, Microsoft and IBM. Welcome, Steve.

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Steve

Thank you. Nice to be with you. Looking forward to the chat.

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Jane

I'm going to take you back to the start, back to those sort of early days, because these are now iconic companies aren't they? Microsoft, Apple. It must have been fascinating working at them. And whilst you wouldn't have been looking for learnings about leadership or anything else when you were there, you must have sort of absorbed quite a lot. So just give us a flavour of what it was like to work at some of those big companies.

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Steve

Well, first of all, I think I was very fortunate to join the tech industry when I did and join IBM and benefit from the fantastic training and development and opportunities that IBM gave me.

The interesting thing, though, with my time at these big companies and the way that I kind of characterised my journey a little bit, is that I've been in some of these great places at really bad times.

So with IBM, I announced the first ever redundancies in the history of IBM Australia, which was a real turning point because up to that point it was jobs for life. A long time ago now.

And then at Apple, I lived through three CEOs of the company over a period of 5 or 6 years.

And then at Microsoft, also, some real challenges coming out of the challenges that Microsoft faced with the Department of Justice actions around Microsoft as a monopoly.

So being in those environments, probably the big lesson in hindsight, looking back - because you're right, these things aren't things that you really appreciate as much in the moment as you do - looking back is just how important the mindset of executives, of leaders, of all of us, how important our mindset is to the way that we deal with change, and also deal with the unpredictable and the difficult situations that come with it.

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Jane

And actually, when I think of Bill Gates and Steve Jobs, I don't necessarily think of them as being people-centered. I think of them as being very tech-centered. Although I guess you could argue that Steve Jobs always thought about design and wanted to make things that people would use. So, you know, you could argue the toss there, I guess.

But your point that you make in your book that we’ll come to talk about in a bit is that, you know, it's not about technology, it's about people. Was that the ethos back then or was it technology that came first?

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Steve

Yeah. Look, I think that, in terms of the way that these leaders lead, what's really powerful, in my view, is when they're clear or they help an organization get clear about what everyone's trying to accomplish, and then they're very good at getting action aligned with that vision, and that they're very good at talking very directly about what they expect and what they see happening, and they make tough choices.

And if you look at Steve Jobs and Bill gates as leaders, they are both very, very good in that regard. So that's definitely to me, you know, one of the things I'd say is that when you're looking at the nature of leaders, their character and the way they care about people, is important - super important.

And the more you care about people, the better, but they're not- That doesn't necessarily mean you have to be this people person, you know, you can still be very much focused on the task and help people around you succeed without being overly consumed in those relationships or coming across as being very, very sensitive to others.

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Jane

So when it comes to leaders are some people just naturally good at it and others aren't? You know, is it nature or nurture when it comes to who makes a good leader?

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Steve

Yeah, it's a really interesting question. And you know what? I think unfortunately, you can't tag one over the other. I think both are significant. So nobody gets to a leadership role without having been brought up in a house of family, being educated, having experiences in their early work life… Those things are so significant that you just can't separate that.

And then anyone who's been a parent and wonders how these two children that come from the same parents can be so different, will also recognise it nurtures a really big part of who we are. So yeah, nature is a very big part of who we are. So I just think that trying to break it down is not going to get you anywhere. And I think we should recognise how important nurture is, because leadership is something all of us can do and all of us do do when we change things around us. That's the leadership. So we can all lead. We can all change things around us for the better if we choose to.

So I do like to lean more towards nurture than nature.

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Jane

And I guess as a sort of follow on to that, there isn't a playbook either, is there, for what makes a good leader. It will totally depend on what it is you're leading and the people that you're leading. So you've got to have a sort of adaptability, even within an organization. The leader you might have been at the start of it is going to be very different to the leader you are when it becomes more successful.

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Steve

Yeah, I think that's really true. But I do think that there are some things that people should take note of that can help them in their journey.

You know, one is, really being more conscious. You know, we spend 95% of our time, according to experts in unconscious mode. We're just doing stuff because we've done it before. And being conscious means: me right now, talking to you and observing myself. Am I talking too fast? Are you interested in what I'm saying? So observing yourself as an actor in a play, rather than being the actor in a play, is a really powerful element of this whole notion of self-awareness.

So I think to be a great leader, you've got to be self-aware. You'll be more effective, and you'll develop and change more quickly for self-aware. So I do think there are some things you can lean on, but our leadership journey is people is going to be different for for every one of us, because the influences are different, experiences are different. So yeah, it's a it's a challenging area. You can't just say, you know, we're going to turn Steve into a great leader tomorrow. You can, you know, put ingredients into the recipe and see what happens.

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Jane

So if you were now going to be hiring somebody, are there key things that you look for?

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Steve

Yeah. It's first of all hiring people.

One of the best bits of advice I was given is do not ask hypothetical questions. I mean, the classic is “do you like working on teams?”. Always ask questions about what was your experience. “Tell me about an experience where you had to to work with someone that was really difficult. How did you deal with that?”. So I really talked to experience.

And then look, I think hiring people is a big challenge. You never get it right 100% of the time. I do think that some organizations are trying to manage that risk by having multiple interviews. So you hear stories about people going through ten interviews to get a job with an organization. I don't have a problem with that. I think the main thing I look for is, is someone willing to be vulnerable and do they appear to be coachable and focused on learning, and have they demonstrated they've changed their mind about things? I think that's where I go.

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Jane

Steve Jobs always seemed to want to sort of employ the best, get the best out of people. He thought that was the way to to lead. These days it's harder, isn't it? A - To find the talent, B - to retain them, but also to sort of have that sort of filtrating down to everybody in the company. Is that a kind of position that you would subscribe to now, that you've got to have the best and you've got to get the best out of people? Or are there other ways to do it these days?

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Steve

Yeah. It's really interesting coming out of Covid as well with some of the different trends in workplace and different aspects of what the economy has gone through. And one minute everyone's hiring, the next minute they're not.

Look, I think that talent and attracting good people is really important. It's obviously a critical focus. I think it starts at the top in an organisation. Being clear about your purpose and also, having a genuine care for people and desire to see people develop in your organization. I think that's what's really, really critical.

The way to operationalize that is through your people leaders and having good leaders of people who hire well, who develop well and motivate their teams to perform to their potential. So people leadership is something that I'm very obsessive about. I think I have a standard or belief that is not necessarily as broadly shared as it should be. So often the talent challenges organizations have are a result of the fact that they have a problem in the way their people leadership, and that's from the top all the way through to first line, how those people leaders are really expected to focus on that job of being a people leader.

So good question: Are people leaders in your organization, is their number one priority to be really good at leading their people? And if not, why not? And I would probably argue that 80% of people who are watching this will probably go, “oh, well, we get our people that are doing lots of other stuff”. So I think being focused on your people is at the core, and good management is at the core of talent, as is having clear purpose and a good brand because you treat people well and you're going places.

So I've never, in the companies I've worked with, had, I'd say, ongoing massive issues with talent. What I have had is the ups and downs of challenges that have hit us from the macro environment, and also shifts in the kind of talent you need.

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Jane

And that's interesting you mentioned that because, you know, you've lived through the.com bust - boom and bust. You've seen, you know, the move from PCs to mobiles. Now we're in the age of AI. Those kind of tech trends, that sort of dominate the working landscape, how do you sort of work out what, how a company can adapt to that incredibly fast paced change where we almost don't know what's around the corner on a day to day basis?

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Steve

I think the core to this is - and really, in a sense, the book I've written is - about changing better.

The real observation I've made over many decades now is: where's humans find change difficult?

And most meaningful change happens through teamwork. And too many of us work on teams that are not performing to their potential, or allowing the individuals to be the best they can be.

So what I really think is key here is that you have to make, and consciously make, being good at change a focus.

So if you don't do that, if you don't make that a core priority for yourself, which means understanding yourself in the face of change, how you deal with it, how you respond to it, and then if you don't focus on the people around you and how you can help them on that change journey, if you don't have that focus and obsession on how change impacts on you and others around you, you're going to struggle.

So even if you are really good at change, you're going to be challenged in the world that we live in today and the future. But I think that's the key. Get good at change and really put a deliberate focus on that.

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Jane

It's hard, isn't it? Because as humans change, some people are more change averse than others. But it's a difficult thing to deal with in our daily lives, let alone in our working lives. Let's talk a bit about the book, though, because, you know, you've mentioned it. “Through Shifts and Shocks” is the title. First of all, what sort of inspired you to write this book?

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Steve

You know, it was very much inspired by an experience I had at the dawn of the .com age. I was made the CEO of a startup, an online media business called NineMSN, which was Nine being the connection with one with Australia's biggest media company and MSN being Microsoft's digital or consumer internet business. So both companies came together, created a joint venture, put $50 million each into it, put all their brands into that joint venture, and I became the CEO of this thing when there was zero online ad market. None. Zero.

And it was through being the CEO of that business over five years that I think I got digitized. That's why I'm still here doing what I'm doing, because that experience really moved me from perhaps being in traditional software to being in the digital side of things.

 But it really made me look back on what I'd learnt, the good stuff I'd learnt from, say, IBM days and go, oh, now I understand why those things are really important. And get a perspective about business that made me realise, wow, so many of the things that were important to finding our way at NineMSN are basic, fundamental things like good people leadership, clarity of purpose, aligning your resources to action that I really want to capture this and share it. Because I think too many of the organizations that I've dealt with are not good at change. And if NineMSN taught me one thing, it was that capability in change is so important. And so that's what I've tried to capture in the book is what do you need? What's the most important, one of the most important things you need to do to be good at change?

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Jane

I was actually reading that on your first day as CEO at NineMSN, you were told the firm was in desperate need of adult supervision. So it sounds as if you had quite a learning curve. What was it that you did to navigate the company through all its changes and sort of instill a culture that was maybe a little bit more adult?

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Steve

Yeah, it was really interesting because we were born with this money and these brands, and we also had ten business plans that would have, in aggregate, represented virtually half the internet in terms of applications and services, which was unrealistic. There was no way we were going to develop ten businesses. One was in travel. Another one was in financial services. And it was just the whole gamut of everything you could imagine - real estate, cars!

So we had all these plans, and then what we'd had was quickly hired 100 people, some from technology, some from media, some from telco and some from other backgrounds. And so there was this incredible richness of asset, but no plan.

And so probably one example of a moment in time that really taught me something was, after a year of working there with all these cool young people, doing their own thing, building websites and having a great time. I did a survey of the 100 people in a room because I could fit them in a room. I said “out of ten, how satisfied are you working at this company?”. And the average score, the score that came back was about a 4 or 5 out of ten. And I couldn't believe it. I thought, these guys have got it so good, and it's only a score that low.

And then we had a conversation - what's wrong? And they said, very simply, the aggregate view was we don't know where we're going, so we don't even know whether the work we're doing is going to add up to something meaningful in the future, and we're doing so many things, none of us have got enough to do what we're doing really well.

So for the next 12 months, all we worked on was getting clear about what we were going to be and not going to be, and we went from ten plans to three. And we also, as a result of that, that change in purpose meant that people who joined us and weren't being satisfied and weren't signed up to where we were heading now decided to opt out. And so we turned over around 30% of our staff in that 12 months.

I got everybody back into the room a year later, and the score was eight out of ten. Because now we were clear. Now everyone was working on one of three things that we really were committed to, and they felt that connection to our purpose and also the ability to be more successful. So that's why I write in my book about clarity and alignment. I mean, there's nothing in that I didn't know before that experience. But what I guess the message I want to get out there is you have to fight lack of clarity every day. As a CEO, as a manager, you can't allow lack of clarity, lack of alignment to just be. And the problem is that that's hard work. It's really hard work.

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Jane

It's interesting that you mentioned doing a survey because it's quite hard to measure, isn't it, whether work culture is working well, whether people are happy in their job and how that sort of impacts on whether they're doing a good job. Is that the way to do it, you think, to do lots of to get the staff involved and ask them lots of questions about how they're finding things? Or are there other tips that you picked up?

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Steve

I think a couple of things for CEOs and managers, leaders of people.

First of all, there's no point asking those things if you're not going to do something about it. So once you open that door, you better do something about it. So that's critical.

The second is you don't have to do a lot to get the belief of people around you that you're serious about making the place better. So the one question I really encourage people to ask, which is all you have to do, is say, okay, out of ten, how do you rate how well we work as a team, given what's possible with the resources we have today? So just with what we got today out of ten, how do you rate how well we're working together, how well we're performing to what's possible? And that question opens up a phenomenal conversation that comes next, which is what's the one thing we should fix?

And then just do one thing as a team, as a leader, sponsor people to do that and fix that. And it's incredible how that starts to give people belief that you're here to be good, to be better every day, because that's all it is. Better every day. Not perfect, you know, greatness. I don't know what greatness is. It's really just better every day is what matters most.

And the interesting thing is that good teams rate themselves on that question, usually 6 or 7 out of ten. So they all see potential to be better. And great teams will rate themselves eight out of ten or better. And teams that are struggling obviously five and less.

The interesting thing about the the teams that do 8 out of 10, or people who rate their team 8 out of 10 or better is, that I've asked hundreds of people this now: only about 20% of people I've asked have ever, in their whole working life, worked on a team they rated eight or better out of ten, which is sad.

And the other aspect to this that I think is interesting is that when you ask people, what's the one thing? Usually over 90% of the time, it has nothing to do with the industry. You're in nothing. It's not about why you do what you do. It's not about what you do. It's about how you do it. It's lack of clarity, lack of alignment. It's not talking honestly about what's wrong. It's fear. It's leaders avoiding prioritization choices. So this, it's so fertile. You know, if you want to improve productivity of any nation, just improve the productivity of the workplace teams that they're working on, because that's where the rubber hits the road. You can do all sorts of reforms around that, but they won't count for anything unless it impacts on people working in an organization. So short answer. The short answer is yes, ask the question. But then you have an obligation to act.

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Jane

Yeah. Good point. And you mentioned the word fear there. It's something that you've talked about. And when we were talking before we sat down for this podcast, you also talked about imposter syndrome. Now when you think of leaders you think of them being strong. I mean, back in the day, they were in a separate office, and you got invited into the office. Things have changed. How important is it that leaders are honest about their own fears and their own doubts? Is that something that helps make a team better, do you think?

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Steve

I think it's foundational because the reality is that overcoming fear as a leader or as a manager is about being vulnerable. It's about saying, “Jane, I don't know what we should do here. I don't think I'm doing a very good job on this. Can you help me?”.

That's what leads to people then being able to step up and contribute more. So I think that's really important, particularly in this day and age where you can't possibly know everything. Or if you think you do, you're kidding yourself.

So yes, vulnerability and being able to overcome your fears is important. But also recognising that it's human to be fearful. As a leader, if I'm the boss and Jane comes into my office and I go “Jane, what do you think of my presentation?” The answer is going to be, oh, it's really good, Steve. But until I go. “Jane. No, no, I really want you to tell me what I could have done better.” Now, Jane's comfortable with Steve. Jane might say something, but if Jane isn't – and that's still going to be quite a lot of people – then you go, “Jane, I reckon I spoke too long or I reckon I didn't cover that subject very well.” Then Jane feels an invitation to say “No, no, Steve, that was fine, I think. Really, what was wrong or could have been better is this:”.

So the reality is, in a hierarchical organization, fear is always there. And therefore it's on leaders to acknowledge that fear and to work through it to get the best out of their people.

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Jane

And to ask the right questions. Like you say, I mean, how you frame things is really, really important, isn't it?

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Steve

Exactly

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Jane

I mentioned there about how the office has changed simply in terms of these days. People don't necessarily want to be behind walls in a specific office, but also just more culturally, the office has changed. But what role do you see an office space having in creating good team culture?

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Steve

Yeah, I do think it matters a lot to have a place where people can congregate. That doesn't mean it'll happen in every organisation, because some organisations will be, by design, fully remote. But I can remember at Xero, when I was visiting our UK office, that we had a bunch of our remote developers in the office on their quarterly visit, and they said, “this is the thing we look forward to most is being able to come in and see others at Xero – and be connected to the company and people within it”.

So a really nice office and an environment that's friendly, warm and allows for those connections and often those unplanned benefits of those connections where you go, “oh, okay.”

Now that I don't think there's any conversation you can have that isn't of potential value. It doesn't matter who – if you ask the right questions and you have an interest in someone, they're going to give you a perspective that's going to be valuable.

So I do think that the office is still really important, but I think obviously it's a different world now. And it has been [that way] for people like me in the tech industry. I have not been in the same place as my teammates for almost two decades now because of the nature of the organizations I managed. But, I do think that the kind of office space we're in today [at Techspace] and what I've seen a lot of organizations evolving to are really, you know, reflective of the importance of having that physical place to connect.

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Jane

Now, one of the things that a lot of the teams in this building will be grappling with: they'll be startups that are kind of at the beginning of their journey as companies, and they might be making that transition from having a founder – that's sort of set the company up – to appointing a CEO. That's something that you know a lot about, having come into Xero as the CEO. What advice would you give based on your experience of that?

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Steve

Well, there are different perspectives on this depending on whether you're board director of a business that's going through potential founder transition, whether you're the founder or whether you're someone reporting to the founder. So there are different ways.

I think that, first of all, for the founder, that transition is a very, very personal thing because when the business starts, you are the business. There is no distinction between the company and the founder in those early stages. But then what happens is the company grows, and the founder has to be more and more comfortable being indirectly influential rather than directly influential. And that's a transition that not all founders like, want or are necessarily built to make.

For a board, you have to really take an interest in how the founder and their team is operating, because I talk about it in the book – I know of some horror stories where boards are captive to a founder. The founder is holding the organisation back and really needs to move on, but nothing's being done about it. They're losing good executives as a result. So every situation is different.

I was really fortunate at Xero because I worked with Rod, the founder, for 18 months before I became CEO. And because he worked with me and he had trust in me, he really started to appreciate where I was taking him and what kind of work that would mean for him. And he said to me, “that's not the work I want to do. That's not, you know, I'm a creative. I'm not someone who wants to build processes and talent and develop teams.” So he realized that the role of the CEO now was not a role he was excited about. And that's when he said, “you know, maybe you should do it.” And you know, history now shows I did and it was awesome, and Rod was still on the board during my entire tenure. We had differences of view, but he always respected my role as a CEO and supported me in the decisions I made, even if he in the lead up to that he had a different view.

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Jane

And so would you say that founders need to sort of learn the best way to bring those people on, or because everyone's different, aren't they? Some founders want to control everything, and it's their baby, and they don't really want to let go. But they're not going to be good at everything if they're creative – or if they're an inventor and they're good at the tech, they're not necessarily going to be good at the people. But it's how you sort of have that conversation with them, if you're in that initial team to sort of make that change. It's a tricky one.

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Steve

It's tricky. Look, I think it's a very much a deeply personal and character thing. So let's say, see, Rod was Xero. Xero was not his first startup. And Rod built Xero with a view that “one day I want this company to be a global tech business.” And now, you know, we've got a great CEO in Sukhinder Singh Cassidy based in the US with a team. It's evolved a lot from the last two years, from when I was there. And, what Rod did was because Rod wanted it to go beyond him.

The transition could happen a lot better than if, say, you have a founder who sees the business as their validation: “this is validating who I am as a person. People said I wasn't any good. People didn't think I could do this. I've done it. Now look at me.” They're going to have a tougher road to hoe. So in terms of letting go, I think that's the core issue: is the founder of a character that can let go of the business when the time is right for them to let go? And the more it's personally embedded in their feeling of self-worth, the harder that's going to be.

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Jane

So we talked a bit about teams and how you kind of try and get things better by having conversations with them, by making sure that you're having this sort of dialogue. But what is it that makes a good team, and what is it that you see as indications that something's going wrong?

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Steve

Yeah, I think the first thing is that the team has a process by which they work at being a better team. You know, I had ten executives. I did that question around “out of ten, how do you rate them?” Two that rated their team eight out of ten said, “we've been working at this.” The others who were sixes and sevens because they were all good organizations, could not say that, did not say that. So I think that's really important. So what are you doing every day to make how you work together better, every day?

I think the how comes down to clarity, alignment, performance review, the nature of our conversations and the choices we make. Are you doing good at that? And I think the most influential person in how well that team dynamic works is their leader – the team leader. And that team leader will have tremendous influence; if they're not open-minded, if they're not interested in seeing their people be the best they can be, there'll be less chance that that team will become a great team.

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Jane

We talked about imposter syndrome. Is that something that ever goes away? Because you think of it as being something when you start your career. But by the time you're leading a company, you shouldn't be worried about that anymore. Do you think that we have it all our lives?

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Steve

Yeah. I had coffee with one of my favorite clients from the past, who runs a massive organization that’s global. And he's been doing his role now for almost two years. And he said, I think, “I think I'm doing okay.” And he was so humble about it. And even for me, when you write a book and you publish it, you sit there going, “who am I to write this book? I mean, what are people going to think of it? Is it any good?” So there are fears and doubts we all have, and anyone who says they don't have them – I think you have to worry about people who don't have those fears and doubts. I can think of a couple of examples of people who probably have more conviction about how wonderful they are than they really should be.

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Jane

I think I might know who you're thinking.

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Steve

Possibly. Possibly. Yeah.

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Jane

So imposter syndrome is a good thing to carry with you. In some ways, you're saying because it gives you humility.

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Steve

Yeah, I think so. And it keeps you grounded, you know. My father's the biggest influence on me as a person and as a professional because I followed him into IBM. He was there for over 30 years, and so I saw how he operated. And one contribution he made to my journey was making sure he kept me grounded and made me understand that you are just like everybody else out there and you need to respect people for whatever their standing or background is. And, don't get carried away with yourself because that's when you become out of touch. That's when things can really go wrong.

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Jane

Actually, that makes me think of another question. You mentioned at the start about how we used to have jobs for life. IBM was a classic example of that, wasn't it? So was the BBC, where I worked. That's not the case anymore. Has that changed the way that people lead? Because we're doing many, many jobs, and [today’s] teams work in this new environment where you’re perhaps only going to be there for a few years.

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Steve

Yeah I think it's a good thing. I don't think the ‘jobs for life’ culture was altogether healthy. And IBM is a great company and it's nice to see the resurgence there in recent times. But it cost IBM severely. And I do believe and certainly in the last year since when I left IBM, my view is “if you're working with me, I want you to be the best version of yourself, even if that means you're going to end up leaving and going somewhere else,” because that kind of relationship makes today the best it can possibly be. And that's all we have. You can want to hold on to people forever, but what really matters is are they happy today? Are they motivated? And are you working well together? So I actually have no problem with the fact that more and more of us have more choice in where we work and what we want to do with our lives. It just puts more onus on the leaders of an organization to be really good at change and keeping people engaged.

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Jane

Now I've asked you a lot of questions. There's a lot of questions and answers in your book. But if you were to sort of think of a question that hasn't yet been answered; that you're still pondering whether it be about the workplace, whether it be about technology, what would that question be?

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Steve

The question on my mind is: how can we amplify, on scale, a recognition that success lies less in the technology and more in the way we deal with the people around that technology? It's definitely implied, and it's definitely something that people do bits and pieces of it. But I think it's really about “how can we be more obsessive about the human element and more obsessive about how well we lead change?”.

I'll give you a little one on AI. So I've talked to quite a few younger people today who can get through their full-time job in well under a full hour, and they're doing other things, or they're just doing nothing. And I always say: “what about your manager? Does your manager know about this?” [And they’ll tell me: “no, my manager doesn't know.” I go, “what are they doing?” I think that the message here is if you manage your people to task rather than to potential, then all these great tools that are coming down the line – that help people do amazing things – are going to go to waste. And I really do believe that if you've got a people problem in your organisation, you're going to have an AI problem. If you're good with your people, you're going to do better with AI.

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Jane

That's a great question to end. Steve, it's been lovely talking to you. Thank you so much for joining us.

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Steve

Thanks for having me I, appreciate it.

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